POTS Diary with Victoria from New Jersey, a chemical engineering student and cyclist

POTS Diary with Victoria [00:00:00] Jill Brook: Hello fellow POTS patients and lovely people who care about POTS patients. I'm Jill Brook, your horizontal host, and today we have an episode of the POTS Diaries, and today we are speaking with Victoria. Thank you so much for joining us today, Victoria. [00:00:15] Victoria: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. [00:00:18] Jill Brook: Okay, so let's start out. Where are you? [00:00:21] Victoria: So I live in New Jersey. I go to school at NJIT. I commute. I'm a chemical engineering major and that's about it. [00:00:30] Jill Brook: Chemical engineering hardcore. Can you tell us a little bit about that? [00:00:35] Victoria: I am really interested in pharmaceuticals, especially after my whole POTS experience. Developing drugs, making drugs a little bit more available to people. It's very hard and it's kind of hard too because, I'm in my junior year now and when the material's starting to get harder, I start to get stressed and then it's like flareups after flareups. So it's like understanding when I'm about to get stressed and kind of like back off. [00:01:00] Jill Brook: Oh yeah. Like a whole art. And then I'm imagining it probably gets a little bit meta too, because you're like, Hmm, I wonder what chemical materials might help me study my chemical materials. [00:01:11] Victoria: Yeah. [00:01:12] Jill Brook: Okay. So let's see. So you mentioned you're a student, but how old are you? [00:01:16] Victoria: I am 21. [00:01:18] Jill Brook: and how would your friends or family describe your personality? [00:01:22] Victoria: Oh. So I also have ADHD. So I'm very hyper, especially in the mornings. Very hyper. Well, depending on the day, sometimes mornings can be a little bit rough, but usually when I'm like up and going, I'm pretty hyper, very energetic. I always care about people, always you know, willing lend a hand. Yeah, that's about it. [00:01:47] Jill Brook: Okay. What are you good at? If we force you to brag about yourself? [00:01:51] Victoria: Oh, hmm. I am definitely good at cycling. Back in high school, I started with competitive cycling. and I won states. I did tri-state. I did Pennsylvania State Championships. And so with road cycling you have like three disciplines. You have time trialing, circuits, and then road race, which I always tell people the road race is like the Tour de France. My specialty was time trialing, so like the pointy helmets, aerodynamic positions. So that's like been my specialty for a while. [00:02:21] Jill Brook: Wow. Very cool. Did you ever have any bad wipeouts? And I ask because when I hear about this, I flash back to when I used to live in Pasadena and I would walk around the Rose Bowl and there'd always be a lot of cyclists there. And I always thought it looked so cool and so fun and so fast until the day I saw the pile up. And from that day forward, I was like, that's the most terrifying sport ever. [00:02:46] Victoria: I know! I did have a couple, but what was it? I was sprinting, I was doing like a sprint workout and I went over my handlebars. I don't know how, even my dad, my dad is also my coach. When my pedals like unclipped, we don't know how it happened. I just went over my handlebar. A lot of times I would collapse after the race and I come to find out was because of the POTS. [00:03:10] Jill Brook: I was gonna say, we're starting to sound like, I don't know like brain injury territory, or concussion territory at all, or no? Is that not part of your story? [00:03:21] Victoria: No. What was it like after I'd be finished with the race? There was times I would like approach my parents with my bike and I would just hit the ground or I would just get so dizzy I would have to sit down. I had this one race in particular. Everyone thought I had heat exhaustion, but after my diagnosis of POTS this year, I'm thinking, I don't think that was heat exhaustion. But long story short, it was a circuit race and I was a junior racing in a women's category. It was extremely hot. And because I was a junior, I thought I would look really cool in a long sleeve speed suit, long sleeve on a hot day. Yeah, I learned that the hard way and I was drinking not as much electrolytes as I should. And actually after the race my dad found me not in a bush, but like next to the bush to kind of get like some shade. And I was in really rough shape. [00:04:15] Jill Brook: So did that confuse people, how you could probably have your heart rate, who knows how high during the cycling race, and then just afterwards walking around, you're having trouble. [00:04:26] Victoria: Yes, I wear a chest strap. I'm really big into Garmin, so I wear a Garmin heart rate strap and there was times where my heart rate would get 215, 220. [00:04:38] Jill Brook: That when you're cycling or when you're walking around afterwards. [00:04:41] Victoria: Cycling. That was when it was for cycling, but when I was walking around, it'd be maybe in like the 120s, 130s in that area, even after I just like completely, rested and everything's back to normal. Well, somewhat normal. [00:04:57] Jill Brook: Okay, so you were incredibly fit. So when did your POTS come on and when did you figure out that this was more than just, heat exhaustion or something like that? [00:05:10] Victoria: In high school, I had episodes like dizzy spells. Dizzy episodes, my resting heart rate was in maybe the forties, the fifties, because of how much I was training my body. So every time I stood up it would maybe go to 90, a 100 a little bit, 105, 1 10. Nothing that screams like, Hey, there's an issue. But if you think about it though, it going from, let's say, 40 to a hundred, that's a pretty significant jump. [00:05:38] Jill Brook: Yeah. [00:05:39] Victoria: But I didn't think about it. I was like, eh, it's nothing. And during my training in high school, my coach at the time, she's a PhD. She's a professional cyclist herself. She asked me, do you have, do you have a cardiac history? And she's like, there's something wrong with your heart rates when you are training. She said that you're way too high for someone at your athletic level. And I was, My heart, I was like, I have no chest pain. I was a little bit ignorant. I was like, what? What happened was as I got older, so like more toward the senior year, I started having issues with my bladder. I started having a lot of GI issues and I didn't tell anyone about the bladder issues because I was very, I was embarrassed. You're just about to graduate, you have bladder issues. It's common for older men and women, it's not a topic I think young men and women wanna talk about. And then on top of it, the GI issues. I was very sensitive to gluten, so I cut all that out. And it helped. However, when I got out of high school, I wasn't working out as much. So my resting heart rate started to go up and as soon as my resting heart rate started to go up, then I started to see the bigger jumps, like in my heart rate. So as soon as I would stand up now, it would go to like 120, maybe 130. And that's when my Apple watch started to let me know like, Hey, there's an issue. And I was thinking again, there's still nothing wrong. Actually, last year I was having significant GI issues. My liver enzymes were through the roof. I wasn't holding food down. I was losing a lot of weight. And you know something I tell a lot of women in science is you have the knowledge, you have the background, now apply to yourself. As a female student in STEM, I was looking at my symptoms and I was like, all right, let's come up with a plan. Let's see what's going on. Because these doctors weren't doing it. And I have a professor who I love dearly, and she supported me throughout my whole entire experience. She got me a good doctor, I love her. She is my favorite. Okay, so a little recap or going back. So we had the GI issues and then my heart rate started to go up and my GI issues got so bad that I had to go to the ER. Now I have my top five rules in order for me to go to the ER. And it wasn't making them, so my parents were like, just go to the urgent care. So I went to urgent care and they were afraid that I had cirrhosis. Cuz I was itching everywhere. I was very itchy. My heart rate was very elevated with my history with my liver enzymes that are like, you need to go. So I [00:08:21] Jill Brook: and cirrhosis is normally something you would associate with like somebody who had been like heavily drinking for a long time. [00:08:27] Victoria: Exactly, exactly. [00:08:29] Jill Brook: And that's not you, right? Right? [00:08:30] Victoria: Oh, oh gosh, no. I actually have a bad reaction to alcohol. I noticed my heart rate goes up a lot of palpitations, chest pain, so I cut all that out. [00:08:39] Jill Brook: Okay, so yes. So you said no, it couldn't be cirrhosis. Yeah. [00:08:44] Victoria: Yeah, so I went into the er, my heart rate was a 180, just standing. And I wasn't worried, I wasn't anxious cause I work at the hospital too and it was actually the hospital I work at and they're like, are you anxious right now? And I was like, no, I'm just mad. I don't know why I have to be here. They're like, your heart rate's pretty high. You need to get an EKG done. And I'm just making a whole fuss. Someone I don't need EKG. EKG comes back that I'm in ventricular tachycardia. So, but I'm in non-sustained VTAC they call it. So they took me in asap. They gave me a liter of fluids. They couldn't explain what was going on cuz everything came back normal. So then I went two other times to the ER and it wasn't until my second cardiologist was able to find out that I have POTS. It was a long, long journey. But like I was stressing before, when you have female students who are in STEM or perhaps whatever, health issues, using what in classes to apply to yourself, I think is the biggest... [00:09:50] Jill Brook: you alluded to some doctors that didn't come through for you prior to that, had you been seeing doctors all along and what had they been telling you? [00:09:59] Victoria: So I have one neurologist. I went to one cardiologist that I did not like at all. He was very quick with me. What was in my health summary of when I saw him, he wrote, under the dermatology section. Patient has piercings and tattoos. He was more worried about my physical appearance than what I came there for. Yeah. And with that being said, it was an all male practice and I was the only female and I was just, I felt very uncomfortable. And my cardiologist now it's all women's practice. She is the best. And then I'm on my third GI, so the first GI told me my my liver enzyme issues were due to me working out. I was like, okay, next doctor. And the next doctor I went to said that I was very anxious because, I presented him with all this information and I said, hey doctor, I think it's, whatever the case is. And he thought that I just looked everything up and I'm just a very anxious person. And I told him at the end, I said, I am not anxious. I said, I did not look this up. And I said, I'm educated. And I told him know the difference. And then that's where my professor found my third GI [00:11:18] Jill Brook: So thank goodness you found somebody good. So, once you had a diagnosis and a doctor who understood your diagnosis, were you able to get treatments that helped very much? [00:11:30] Victoria: Yes, this month is when I started medication. I started a little bit more of a dietary change, a little bit more of a lifestyle change. I'm not working out just right now. I do have to see an electrophysiologist just to double check that the electrical circuit's working. But as soon as I get cleared from the electrophysiologist, then I have to do a little bit of cardiac rehab to kind of like rebuild, working out, basically starting from the ground up again. Cuz if I tried doing what I did in high school, it's gonna be a very big flare up. [00:12:00] Jill Brook: So are you excited to work out again or scared to work out again? And how do you feel about it? [00:12:05] Victoria: Funny you mentioned that beginning of this year I was training for a half marathon with my two best friends. And, they knew about my condition. So whenever we would do group runs, I was kind of in the middle. So they could watch me. They were like, all right. Like, how is she doing? What was it? Whenever I said like, Hey, I just can't run today. Like, I have a bad day, or I'm having a bad day, they'd be like, Hey, it's okay, you know? No worries. And all that running actually led me in the hospital with a major flare. [00:12:34] Jill Brook: Oh. [00:12:35] Victoria: Yeah. So I'm very excited to get back. I think I just need to know my limits and I'm a person that likes to just jump right in, no questions asked, but I realize now it's, I know what the future is if I just jump in, so I gotta take a couple steps back. [00:12:52] Jill Brook: Okay, so what helps you the most in controlling your POTS? [00:12:56] Victoria: Hmm. Definitely compression socks. Also, when I do work out, believe it or not, it's arm compression stockings. [00:13:04] Jill Brook: Oh really? [00:13:06] Victoria: Yeah. My hands swell a lot. It's bad. My watch, I always have to adjust it because just everything is so swollen. And another thing, Pedialyte and Vita, oh, what is it? The Vita, the Salt tablet. [00:13:22] Jill Brook: Vitassium? [00:13:24] Victoria: Yes. Vitassium And my cardiac meds. That's it. [00:13:27] Jill Brook: Okay. So is life very different for you now than before? [00:13:31] Victoria: Yes. Yes. Before I felt like I could do literally everything, everything from doing my bike races to having fun in the sun to... I guess not really caring, not caring about my body, but not being so focused on, okay, do I have a new symptom? What's going on? But now it's like, all right, we gotta take it easy. We know our limits, we gotta take it day by day. [00:13:57] Jill Brook: What are your worst symptom? [00:13:59] Victoria: Definitely palpitations. I do have PVCs too. So palpitations, chest pain. I Don't know if you call this a worse symptom, but it's just very, for me, it's kind of like odd to have. It is like the discoloration in the legs. Definitely the GI issues, the bladder issues, yeah, those are definitely the worst. [00:14:19] Jill Brook: Yeah. Yeah. How can people support you the best? What's the best support you can get from other people at this point? [00:14:28] Victoria: During my, like, diagnosis before, like, this whole journey? I'm a very independent person. I didn't want anyone with me at the appointments. I was like, I can handle this myself. It only took the third ER visit where my mom said, that's it. We're getting involved. This is getting outta hand. And for me it was like, everything was out the window. It's like I can't be an independent person anymore. But I realized that that's not the case. The case is to have a support system for an issue that's very chronic. And, my mom's always asked me like, Hey, how are you doing? My sisters, they know what's going on. So they, you know, they always ask, Hey, you're doing all right. My running buddy. They'll take into consideration the hot weather. So if it's too hot, sometimes in the beginning they're like, oh, like don't worry about it. It's not too hot, like you need to train your body. But then afterward they're like, all right, like, we get it. Like, no worries. you know, I think that's just checking up on me and just take into consideration of, Hey, I can't do this, but can we do something else? [00:15:32] Jill Brook: Yeah. Okay. So let's talk more about your chemical engineering program. That sounds challenging. So tell me about an average day. You said you commute. How long do you commute? How does your POTS play into a day at school and how do you manage it? [00:15:51] Victoria: Oh. So I get up really early. I get up 5, 5:30. Because it's a little bit of a progress to get up in the morning. I'm really big into PubMed articles. There was one article that said, elevating the bed to at least 45 degrees. So that's what I started doing. So as soon as I get outta bed, it's a slow walk. Try to regain everything because the blurred vision and I really can't eat in the morning, so I normally like pack something to go and my commute is about an hour, so I normally do work. And then my day consists a lot of studying. It's just study, study, study. I'm taking three major classes right now. So it's been a rough ride. But actually I did have a flare up last week where I think I was, I was just so stressed with everything that when I was walking to the train station, I heard my train was coming and I was like, oh gosh. I need to run to the train. So I started to run. Then all of a sudden my heart rate got a little high, a little bit too high, and then my vision started getting blurred. And then I didn't fall, but I was like holding onto the edge of the railing and I was like, I had to sit. But then I slowly like got up and I was like, all right, we can't miss the train. And the conductor was nice. He saw me, so he was like, all right, I'll wait for her. [00:17:13] Jill Brook: Oh, that's nice. [00:17:14] Victoria: Yeah. I'll take into consideration. Yeah. [00:17:17] Jill Brook: man. I was really pulling my memory of the New Jersey trains is that they don't have the cleanest floors. So it's not a place where you wanna have to lay down in an emergency. [00:17:27] Victoria: No, I will close my eyes. I'll do something. Then lay down. I, I completely get it. It is. Yeah. It's not the cleanest and a lot of people take the train, so especially coming from Hoboken or Penn Station. So it's very, very busy. [00:17:42] Jill Brook: Yeah. So do you feel like having POTS has taught you any life lessons? [00:17:48] Victoria: Yes. In high school I was very like, Everything has to be done now. There has to be a timeline for everything. Okay, I have to graduate within four years. I have to do my master's program at this time, whatever the case was. And after POTS, I realized that that's not the case because life will throw you unexpected turns. So I realized, there's no set time to complete something. Well minus your homework. But I mean like big major events. When it comes to finishing college, cause I did have to take a gap year that it's okay to, not graduate within four years. It's okay to not be at the level that you wanna be at, but, have goals so that you can be at that level and know that you can reach those goals. It's just gonna take a little work, maybe a couple steps back, but you'll get to it. [00:18:38] Jill Brook: Are there any silver linings that have come from having POTS? [00:18:42] Victoria: Hmm, I don't know. Minus eating all the salt I want? Actually I would have to say standing up for myself. Before, I would never, I would never confront a doctor. I would never put a doctor in a spot. Obviously, respectfully, I would never do that, especially like, in high school. And that's something that was just very scary for me. And I remember the first time I confronted a doctor and I stood up for myself and I was like, my heart rate got a little high, but then I was like, wait a minute, this is my body I'm in. Basically, I'm paying him so well, literally I am. So I would have to say that's, that's the major one. [00:19:20] Jill Brook: Do you think it changes your world outlook at all? To discover that sort of doctors, these people that we've been trained to so look up to and trust and we put ourselves in their hands, and then to have a couple bad experiences. Do you think that that has at all changed your outlook on, I don't know, authority figures in general or on set narratives in general where you're just kind of like more questioning now? [00:19:47] Victoria: Actually there was a time where I did wanna go to medical school and I definitely wanted to go and um, after my experience now and working in the hospital and seeing how doctors interact with patients. No, I can't. One, because I'd probably lose my mind with how many doctors that don't care. And I have this thing where, you know, I wanna help as many people as I can, and I think it would definitely take a toll on me if I did go down the medical route. that's why I wanna stick to behind the scenes work. But I think you have a lot of doctors who just don't care anymore, but you have some doctors who do care. It's just, it's such a weird gap. But also I realize more female doctors are more understanding than the male doctors. But yet again, it depends on the specialty because some specialties are known to be a little bit more aggressive than the other when it deals with patient care. So I think that's always something good to take into consideration is, okay, what kind of specialists do I have to go to? I know that cardiac doctors are, don't quote me on it, but I know that they're known to be a little bit more arrogant. So that's why I'd prefer to see a female doctor than a male doctor. Someone who's a little bit more open-minded, doesn't see me as just, oh, she's a female of anxiety. There's no cardiac issue there, cuz I think that's happening to way too many women. [00:21:08] Jill Brook: right. [00:21:10] Victoria: Yeah. [00:21:11] Jill Brook: Yeah. Okay. So are you up for a speed round where we ask your brain to just shoot out the first thing that comes to your mind? [00:21:18] Victoria: Ooh, okay. [00:21:19] Jill Brook: And we know that your brain's probably not getting enough circulation, but that's half the fun. What is your favorite way to get salt? [00:21:27] Victoria: The Vita Fusions. Dead salt tablets. [00:21:29] Jill Brook: What is the drink you find the most hydrating? [00:21:33] Victoria: Pedialyte. [00:21:35] Jill Brook: Where is your favorite place to spend time? [00:21:38] Victoria: my backyard. [00:21:40] Jill Brook: How many doctors have you ever seen for POTS? [00:21:43] Victoria: Mm. Eight [00:21:45] Jill Brook: How many other POTS patients have you ever met face-to-face? [00:21:50] Victoria: three. [00:21:51] Jill Brook: What's one word that describes what it's like living with POTS? [00:21:56] Victoria: unpredictable. [00:21:58] Jill Brook: What is some good advice that anyone ever gave you about anything? [00:22:02] Victoria: Probably to take it easy. You're doing too much. [00:22:06] Jill Brook: What is something small or inexpensive that brings you comfort or joy? [00:22:12] Victoria: I was gonna say my physics textbook. Cause I love physics. [00:22:15] Jill Brook: Wow. Right on. I admire that. That's great. What is something that you're proud of? [00:22:20] Victoria: That I did not give up. [00:22:23] Jill Brook: Who is somebody that you admire and why? [00:22:26] Victoria: Oh, that's a lot of people. Are there multiple I can say? Definitely my parents for just everything that they do for me. My two best friends for always having my back and supporting me through this difficult time, and that's about it. Yeah. [00:22:42] Jill Brook: Okay. I'm gonna go off script cuz I just have to ask you about some things like being a cyclist and being in New Jersey. Okay. As a cyclist, what do you think about Lance Armstrong? [00:22:51] Victoria: I think he just wanted to win. There was such a motive for him to win. Maybe it was, I think mainly to be like the first US cyclist to win the tour of France. I think, that was on the plate for him. there's just so many questions. I don't know. Why would you do that to yourself? I don't know. But I don't think he should be paying the consequences he is now. Like, yes, he did it to himself, but I mean, yeah, there's not much to say. [00:23:18] Jill Brook: I always think about him because I think that some of the blood doping that some of the cyclists do is considered a potential thing that could help some POTS patients, right? The E P O. [00:23:30] Victoria: Oh. Yeah. [00:23:32] Jill Brook: Okay. Next topic, New Jersey. What do you like best about New Jersey? [00:23:37] Victoria: I'm actually not from New Jersey . I would have to say maybe the mountains, like there's some like pretty cool mountains to climb here. So I'd probably say that. [00:23:45] Jill Brook: So where are you from? [00:23:46] Victoria: So I used to live in North Carolina. [00:23:48] Jill Brook: Ah, and what's your favorite thing about North Carolina? [00:23:52] Victoria: I have to say the environment, it's just very calm, very relaxing. Caribou coffee's my favorite down there, but I get the decaf. [00:23:59] Jill Brook: What is an activity that you can enjoy even when you're feeling very POTSie? [00:24:04] Victoria: Probably just catching up with a friend, going out maybe it's a Starbucks sitting down getting like a drink. [00:24:10] Jill Brook: do you have trouble falling asleep? And if so, does anything help you? [00:24:15] Victoria: Well, it depends. With my school day, starting from 5, 5 30 in the morning, getting home at like 10 30, I'm out, I'm exhausted. But if it's not that kind of day, usually melatonin helps. [00:24:28] Jill Brook: Nice. Okay. Can you finish these sentences? I love it when... [00:24:34] Victoria: my POTS is on my side for the day. [00:24:37] Jill Brook: I hate it when... [00:24:39] Victoria: my flare ups decide to come on a very important day. [00:24:43] Jill Brook: and that always happens, doesn't it? [00:24:45] Victoria: I know! [00:24:46] Jill Brook: People might suspect I'm a POTSie when [00:24:49] Victoria: And carry my Pedialyte around, which I have a funny story about that. [00:24:54] Jill Brook: please. [00:24:55] Victoria: Every time I have my Pedialyte, I think it was the first time in class last semester, and someone made the comment of, oh, you had a very fun weekend. And I was like, oh, thinking my head good syrup. You only knew I didn't have a fun weekend. So I usually get that kind of response whenever people see me with a Pedialyte bottle. [00:25:17] Jill Brook: Oh, that's funny. They think you're a big partier. [00:25:19] Victoria: Yeah. [00:25:20] Jill Brook: Oh, appearances can be so deceiving. [00:25:23] Victoria: Oh, I know. [00:25:24] Jill Brook: Have you ever had to sit down or lie down in a weird place because of POTS, and if so, where was it? [00:25:30] Victoria: I was in a pharmaceutical convention up in uh, New York and I was meeting my dad and his boss there and I was running cause I thought I was gonna be late. So I'm in this professional outfit. I'm running to, I'm running to this place. My heart rate got very high that I had to squat cause I couldn't sit cause I was in New York. So I'm out here squatting and it just looked very weird because I was in a nice dress and... [00:26:00] Jill Brook: oh, what do you wish more people knew about POTS? [00:26:05] Victoria: That the symptoms vary from person to person and so does the severity. And that athletes with POTS are presented with little bit more of different symptoms. [00:26:16] Jill Brook: I just have a couple more questions. Is there anything you'd like to say to your fellow POTS patients who are listening? [00:26:23] Victoria: Oh, don't give up. We're all in this together until they find a cure, and I'll make sure I'm a part of it. [00:26:30] Jill Brook: That's awesome. That's awesome. So tell us one more time how you might be able to use what you're learning now to help work toward a cure. [00:26:42] Victoria: As I said before, I'm really interested in pharmaceuticals both on the engineering aspect as well as the development aspect. Eventually when I do become a chemical engineer is I can kind of, say, do I wanna go a little bit more to development side and, maybe get away from the engineering or do I wanna help with, okay, how are we gonna basically send out this product or whatever they make to help with POTS? Helping out with the delivering aspect. Okay. If this medication is a saline bag, is it a shot, is it a pill? Whatever the case is, I would kind of help to, basically, build it and then distribute it. So that's if I wanted to go more for like, the manufacturing side and like the engineering side. But if I wanted to go more with the development side, I could help with basically designing the drug from start. [00:27:31] Jill Brook: That's so neat. And you're making me now appreciate all the people who helped design the drugs that are in my body right now, or they get injected into my veins and I'm realizing what a weirdly intimate relationship that sort of is, even though I've never met them and I never will. But it's cool to think it's people like you that are helping us function. [00:27:53] Victoria: It's a big process and there's a lot of hands on deck. You have chemists, you have biologists, you have engineers, you have biomedical, you have chemical, and you have those subspecialties too, that are helping just to make one drug. [00:28:08] Jill Brook: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and you're in a great place for it. I remember all of those pharmaceutical companies on Route One there in New Jersey, so you're in the center of it. [00:28:19] Victoria: Yeah. [00:28:21] Jill Brook: Well, I just thank you so much for all that you're doing and for sharing your story and your insights with us today. Last question, why did you agree to let us share your story? [00:28:33] Victoria: mainly because I want to let other POTS patients know that there is hope. Especially for POTS patients who are maybe athletes. Of course, struggling to get a diagnosis that, don't give up. If, if you are educated, I'm gonna apply to yourself and you'll gonna answer a lot quicker, a lot quicker. [00:28:54] Jill Brook: Yeah, many of us found that to be the case. Oh, well I'm so glad that you were able to use your science backgrounds to help get answers faster in your case. And I know everybody listening just wishes you all the best going forward and we look forward to your career helping out making more good. [00:29:14] Victoria: Yeah. [00:29:15] Jill Brook: So, hey listeners, I hope you enjoyed today's conversation. We'll be back again next week. Until then, thank you for listening. Remember, you're not alone, and please join us again soon.